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ON CAMPUS questions , right ? And academic freedom gives us the right to question things . And part of my job as an academic is to get to the truth , and we want a clarity in the truth . So I ’ m going to ask you really pointed questions , but sometimes these questions become attacks . They become ideological clashes . And so it closes down the conversation , and people in the room that don ’ t agree with either side feel some violation .
Are these forms of behaviour playing out differently , do you think , while we ’ re in this intermediate stage of remote working and Zoom calls and other forms of interactions ? Do they still apply now and to a greater extent or lesser ? I think it is just as prevalent , but it takes different forms . Now we have more pause time when we work online , in some ways . It ’ s like when in school , where you could pass notes or you could text a message . Now that can happen online . You don ’ t have the immediate audience around you to provide cues as to whether something ’ s appropriate or not appropriate . So I think people feel a little bit more willing to say things because you ’ re in your office and there ’ s no one around you .
I think we ’ re finding more skilful ways to call out and to rebel against administration . We ’ re finding , particularly in terms of inclusion and diversity issues , that people are just refusing to show up to certain meetings . They ’ ll say : ‘ I Didn ’ t feel I was represented . Unless I ’ m going to be represented , unless I have a space , I feel shut down , and we ’ re not going to attend .’ So we see these forms of resistance happening , but it seems to be more grassroots .
I ’ m interested to know whether the vociferous critique of our academic leaders is a stronger phenomenon in Australia . Is this a tall poppy phenomena , do you think , or does it play out in a very similar way in Canada too ? It is similar , but I was a bit taken aback at the kind of language that ’ s used . I felt it was a bit more hostile and pointed in Australia . I think that must be a cultural thing . I think the problem is in Australia there ’ s a bigger divide between leaders and staff , between management and faculty and staff , and there ’ s a number of reasons for that .
It is unusual for someone to have a leadership position in Canada that isn ’ t recruited from the professoriate . So you come from that rank . Where in Australia we have more examples of people coming in that aren ’ t from an academic culture . So it takes time to understand . You can understand institutional culture , but the academy has a culture of its own .
It ’ s very competitive in Australia in terms of not wanting to give away your corporate secrets . Even in working with other deans , there ’ s a certain camaraderie in that . But when the deans get together , we ’ re competing for funding , right ? We ’ re competing for where we rank in our institution . We ’ re always compared with each other . So there ’ s an unwillingness to show that you don ’ t know , to be vulnerable . So we show up as if we know . We show up as competent . That ’ s the emotional labour aspect of it .
Australia has way more metrics and accountability and dashboards for performance than we do in Canada , but we also are more collegial in our governance and decision-making . So in some ways it ’ s a little easier in Australia to push through change , and because everything has to be voted on , it ’ s more difficult to be agile and make big changes in Canada .
Do you see a course of action where we can address and fix some of these systemic issues with culture in universities ? What more could individual leaders and our universities do to help develop the culture in a way that academic leadership and its emotional labour experiences become more tolerable ? One is to talk about workplace culture to set the rules of engagement even before meeting , and to talk about it and remind people about the rules , about turntaking . And then reinforcing that : that we actually call out when people are doing that , when they ’ re interrupting , to actually manage that by asking them to pause and not interrupt .
So it ’ s about collaboratively talking about the kind of culture we want . What does that look like ? And what are we going to do together to maintain and create that ?
The other part of a being a leader that I ’ ve come to understand is trying not to take things personally , and to understand when my colleagues are really acting out that there is something that they ’ re really passionate about , and usually it ’ s about their identity and their work . And they are suffering , and they are rebelling because what you ’ re proposing has no place for them .
Incivility happens when people ’ s identities and core values are challenged .
So it ’ s about trying to create a space for them to feel heard and to feel validated , and about trying to move forward .
I talk in my writing about false hope and this idea of critical hope , and a little bit of utopian thinking . I think that as leaders , we do this work because we really believe that we can make things better . I don ’ t think it ’ s just for our ego , but we really believe that our vision and our plan is going to make it better for everyone . And we ’ ll bring some along , and some we won ’ t . As a leader , I think about how much time I ’ m going to invest in helping those that feel disenfranchised , or angry , or not included . How much time can I spend to make them feel heard and help them find a place in the new vision ? And how much time I should then devote to saying , ‘ You know what ? I really think you would be happier elsewhere .’ To help them understand that they should voluntarily leave with some dignity , and we can actually acknowledge what they ’ ve done .
When a culture becomes toxic , there is a point where there will be a group that you may never be able to change . There becomes an impasse . What we really need to do is to get rid of them , to help them find another place where they can be valued and they can do the work they ’ re doing . And as a leader I ’ m going to put my faith and energy into those that are going to be able to come alongside .
Sometimes it means that you have to turn the organisation upside down and shake it up , as has happened quite a bit in Australian universities , so that we can start again . And that ’ s pretty scary . That doesn ’ t happen as much in Canada , but I ’ m really amazed at the amount of restructuring that happens in universities in Australia , and I think we can learn a lot from the process in place to do that .
Incivility happens when people ’ s identities and core values are challenged . So I need to understand what they are , I need to acknowledge them and say , ‘ Yeah , here ’ s a place where you can fit in . Or , you know what ? There is no place .’ ■
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