D . S .: We are pretty dead right now . A lot of life has gone out of our buildings . Weeds peek through our sidewalks . Letters on the front sign fall down . Junk pills up . Most congregations need a complete “ de-dowdyization . They smell like Grandma ’ s house . ( Yes , I am a grandma so no offense intended .) We wonder why young people don ’ t come and the answer is right there . We don ’ t look like the places where they live and work . We look like we tethered ourselves to the 1950s and have no intention of coming out or breaking free .
G . G .: Another concept you have expressed often is " removing the pews " both physically and as a metaphor for something more significant . Please , tell us more , and why it would be helpful for a congregation in 2021 .
D . S .: By removing the pews ( the title of my forthcoming book ) I mean removing them from our minds and spirits the way we think , our epistemological , our narratives about ourselves — and emptying those spaces spiritually and then physically . When you open your mind and heart , God rushes in with new ideas . Pews imply rigidity . They imply discomfort . They imply preachers who are wagging their fingers at you . They are NOT all those things , necessarily , but they need a rebranding . People are trying to get away from shame and blame theology , rigid constructs . They want more fluidity , more acceptance , more grace .
When you remove the pews , you can still set up chairs and sit down . You can even buy more comfortable chairs . When you empty the space , you also refill the space . It is a cycle of emptying and filling . Plus , there is a very practical advantage . When a congregation doesn ’ t fill its pews , when the pews look EMPTY , the message is very difficult . People feel like they showed up in the wrong place at the wrong time . And they kind of did . Removing the pews makes a gospel kind of statement . We ’ re interested in the stranger . We ’ re interested in their experience of us . We want to set a number of chairs that is the right number in a circle so there is a place for you , but not one where everybody stares at you .
G . G .: B + M is an organization based in NYC , but could this model be translated into other cities ?
D . S .: Absolutely . Getting organized is always the best approach to any problem . Our model is majority faith leaders , minority people with the expertise we need . It is a blend . It is fundamentally ecumenical , even interfaith . It teaches cultural competency by bringing people together who normally don ’ t even know they are all plowing the same fields in real estate , cultural density , anti-gentrification , open space , and place . Of course , not everybody is worried about air rights the way we are . But working contextually in any kind of city or town or rural crossroads is more than adaptive ; it is the right way to go . By the way , we have a Lilly grant that will allow us to experiment with our model in five cities . Thank you , Lilly Endowment . We ’ ll know more in a couple of years .
G . G .: Can you tell us more about the partnership between B + M and Partners for Sacred Places to create a national model to teach congregations about sustainability , adaptive reuse , and space-sharing ?
D . S .: The partnership is like a big brother to a baby sister , sibling-esque . The older brother is much older , wiser , experienced and has preservation at his heart . The sister is just moving out of being a baby sister but finding it a grace and gift to be able to stay close to the elder . Also , the younger sibling grew up in a very New York City-centric environment and is wondering about what form the next chapter should take . Cooperating with Partners ( and also Hartford International University for Religion and Peace ) on the Lilly grant , which goes national in an experimental form , to see if what New York has learned can benefit others or not , is not a small matter . Preservation ? The need to challenge landmark status in order to protect congregations ? There are multiple issues that are very New York but also extend elsewhere . The siblings get along very well , and that is a blessing . And Partners is a wise elder : encouraging the young as it goes on .
G . G .: You never stop ! What will be your next challenge ?
D . S .: I have stopped a bit . I have re-wired and am working in a part-time , lovely setting on the East End of Long Island , where the people are the type you would imagine live on the edge of the country . Interesting , stumped , looking for inner peace from their regular bustle . Artists , farmers , lesbians . I like the mix a lot . Judson was magnificent for 15 years , but it took all I had and then more . I suppose I am one of those COVID people who just realized during the pandemic she wanted a change of pace and way . Anyway , I will be teaching with Gianfranco in these five cities and playing tennis and doing my part time job . I should also give a shout out to Hartford Seminary where I have taught Leadership for eight years . They are also a part of our Lilly Grant , along with Partners , in an interesting collaboration . The seminary , by the way , is no longer the seminary . It is now the Hartford International Seminary for Peace and Religion . I love it there . The majority of our students are international or new immigrants . Hartford has changed itself often during its long and illustrious history . I like being a part of change — because I ’ m pretty sure lovely change is the most sustainable thing you can do . Of course , you can also resist change , but why bother ?
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