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BC : Yes . And I guess what I ’ m really poking at is , there ’ s this assumption in modern culture that you can ’ t do that anymore . Like that ’ s all past . It ’ s that blithe kind of “ We ’ ve seen it all ” thing . So if you look at most of the outrage musical culture , it ’ s about what people are doing or saying – it has very little to do with what they ’ re doing musically . But , back to Stravinsky , he was able to do it organically , with music . And I know the first time I heard Joy Division , for example , I was like , “ What am I listening to ?” I was both attracted and repelled simultaneously . I wanted to turn it off and hurl the cassette across the room . But I couldn ’ t stop listening .
IE : And you actually got to play Joy Division songs onstage with New Order years ago . And the look on your face onstage made it seem like you ’ d ascended to some higher plane . BC : Yeah . And it ’ s been an amazing journey , right , you know ? Because I ’ ve gone from the ascended to “ Now I ’ m in the group ! I get to play with the band !” But I still have that memory of being in
IE : And then the gatekeepers saunter along to judge it accordingly . BC : For every ( fair , non-judgmental interview conducted ), I ’ ve talked to ten of the others , and I can ’ t , even in a sentimental way , point to anything that I was affectionate about . It was like some Rohrshach Test , like some sort of weird test where I ’ ve gotta make their grade . Like , my accomplishments somehow get fed into their alpha-bullshit-New-York version of what makes the grade . I always thought Lou Reed had it right because he figured out – much like Dylan at an early age – that those ( press ) people were all full of shit . And he always treated them exactly how they deserved to be treated because they were fucking assholes , do you know what I mean ? And he just out-alpha-ed them – he was better at their game than they were , and they hated him for it . I always wondered when people would say , “ Oh , Lou Reed – he ’ s the worst interview .” How can you say Lou Reed is the worst interview when he ’ s one of the smartest men to ever come down the pike ? And he absolutely started a revolution – you can literally trace alternative music ’ s roots back through Lou Reed , single-handedly , including Bowie . They all paid fealty to Lou because Lou figured that shit out in ’ 66 . He figured out hipster culture and Warhol , and he was singing songs about heroin when he ’ d never even done heroin . All that shit – he figured it out , much like Dylan . They figured out the code really early . But in his case , he was just smarter than the literati , and they hated him for it . And if you look at the way Lou ’ s talked about posthumously , it isn ’ t as affectionately as he should be , because he doesn ’ t fit in their little comfortable boxes that they have .
They love Bowie now . Have you noticed how they love Bowie now ? But remember how they
22 illinoisentertainer . com november 2022 some girl ’ s apartment , circa 1984 or ’ 85 , and her playing Joy Division . And I just kept saying , “ But it ’ s out of tune .” You know what I mean ? And as if that fucking mattered . Something about it was rubbing me wrong , but I had enough sense to realize that it wasn ’ t a bad thing , but I still had to go through the sensory feeling of , “ Wait – this weird . What am I listening to ? Is this good ?” You know – the classic “ Am I supposed to like this ?” type of stuff . photo by Jonathan Weiner
wrote about Bowie in the ‘ 90s ? They just abused the hell out of him – they made fun of him , they mocked him , they wrote silly headlines . They loved every aspect of his alleged downfall , and now they talk about him like he ’ s a deity . It ’ s so classic – the hypocrisy is rank , you know ? But like a lot of kids , I came up out of the suburbs thinking , “ Oh , this guy or girl ( journalist ) sitting across from me – they really wanna tell the truth , so we ’ re gonna have a nice conversation about the truth .’ And I learned real quick that that ’ s not what the game was . I was just fodder in a greater cultural way , and I was not sophisticated enough to know that ’ s what I was supposed to do .
IE : The first time I talked to Lou Reed , on a phoner not long after The Blue Mask , he made a casual reference to Delmore Schwartz , and I – being from the honest Midwest – innocently asked who that was , and he actually stopped and explained him in meticulous detail . I went out to City Lights [ bookstore ] the next and bought my first Delmore Schwartz book , and a few later , when I flew down to L . A . to talk to him about
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