which individuals interacted with each other and learned from each other , and the ways in which people positioned each other because of that colonial history . We got talking about interculturality and criticality and that ’ s where it started .
Fatima : I had incorporated critical service learning with the ERDG 425 course where students learn how to work with difference and was still having issues around the colonial mentality and colonial educational paradigm that we ’ re engaged in and Fran was looking at it from the international perspective — Fran : global north , global south — Fatima : The whole point was that if we ’ re going to try to dismantle colonial ways of thinking , being , viewing , and doing , then doing it in Regina alone is not going to take it far . But if you can do it at a global level , and take it to the seat of colonialism , England , then that would possibly make it more effective , not even effective , more consciousness raising , and — Fran : farreaching .
Shuana : How did you develop and grow this collaboration ? What were your next steps ?
Fran : Two things really : first was that we were invited by the academic who I had been staying with in Newcastle to consider putting a chapter together as part of a book that she was editing . We agreed to do that . Fatima was involved in a project in Sydney that presented some possibilities for working together , as well . We also thought if there were opportunities for us to act as visiting scholars at each other ’ s universities that maybe some other opportunities might present themselves . So we both sought ways in which we could spend some time in each other ’ s contexts . Fatima : We sought funding from the University of Exeter , SIDRU [ a research unit in the Faculty of Education ], and the University of Regina President ’ s SSHRC grant . Fran : At Exeter , as part of the internationalization of the University , we have two associated visiting academic funding schemes : One for inviting an academic to come and work with you and the other to support you to go and work in another university .
Shuana : What were your initial expectations of this relationship ? Did you see how this would unfold ?
Fatima : We jointly worked out what we would need to do in order to get to where we are now . That included working with people at the University of Exeter , and working with other partners outside of the Faculty of Education . ... Exeter provided that environment to be able to engage in discussions with other colleagues , to build our own thinking , and to move to a different space and place theoretically and at a practical level . I had support from the University of Exeter and I ’ m considered an important part of their research group , an associate member of the new — Fran : It ’ s now called the Creativity and Emergent Education Network . This collaboration has developed into a network — we have contacts in New Zealand , the United Kingdom , other members in Canada , some in Brazil , and Europe — which was partly facilitated by our both being invited by Vanessa to — Fatima : the Ethical Internationalization in Higher Education research project . Vanessa Andreotti from UBC had a massive grant . We were about 30-40 collaborators in about 20 universities worldwide . We became part of a fabulous network and we still have this network .
Shuana : The network is a really important aspect , then ? Fatima : I think so . I think we have to move out of our comfort zone and be able to reach out to others . But we have to be comfortable in our own skin , and in who we are . Because I think when you are working with other educators from around the world — we all have different talents and strengths and weaknesses — we ’ ve got to be able to learn how to complement each other rather than compete with each other . The whole concept of competition , which is what the academy , the neo-liberal agenda is pushing , we ’ ve got to disrupt it ... If we understand that we can all be successful ... we can be cooperative , but ethically cooperative . We have to let go of a lot of pride and arrogance . It ’ s all about being humble , about having humility . Fran : Our professional relationship , however , is the core of what we do . Most of the empirical research takes place here . That ’ s , for us , the focal point of a much larger network .
Shuana : You are both researchers in difference and intercultural relationships , and you also have this dynamic in your relationship . How are differences resolved in your working relationship , and how has this relationship informed your work ?
Fatima : Just to foreground , I have spent 55 years of my life learning about the other and learning to live with the other and I still don ’ t make it . It ’ s taken me 55 years to be where I am today , to be able to somewhat integrate and to be able to play the game , to navigate who I am outside of my home and who I am inside my home .
Fran : It ’ s been both the most rewarding and the most uncomfortable of relationships because to be true to the work that we are interested in , we have to really be prepared to look — I had to be prepared to look deep inside myself and become much more aware of the background I come from : the fact that I am British , White , middle to upper class , I ’ ve had loads of privileges in life . I was completely unaware of how many doors those opened to me that would have been closed to people like Fatima . At the beginning , and not wanting to own some of that stuff , it ’ s been uncomfortable . It ’ s been a really , really steep learning curve . But I would say that the way that we learn from our dynamic and theorize around our dynamic — and there have been times that I thought I don ’ t want to theorize around Fatima ' s dynamic anymore ; it has felt a bit like that , but obviously that is just in the moment — if we can ’ t do it as researchers ourselves , then how can we possibly do it as part of the research we are focussing on or the hope that teachers work with students in particular ways ... We have to do the work ourselves , as well , is what I ’ m saying .
One of the things I ’ ve learned that is hardest about the critical interculturality is to focus or stick with the differences and try to really start to understand what is behind those differences rather than just staying at the superficial level — it ’ s not about resolving them , it ’ s about understanding them as deeply as you possibly can , how differences relate to a whole set of socio-cultural historical complexities . Even in the most apparently innocuous type of conversation , a misunderstanding can arise because of those differences . It ’ s enriched , I feel , what we ’ ve done together and what ’ s been possible and been uncomfortable and — Fatima : difficult .
Fatima : What Fran has been working on over the past 6 years , I ’ ve had to do since I was five or six . It ’ s difficult for somebody who hasn ’ t had that lens before , to start looking from a different lens . I ’ ve seen Fran struggle and I ’ ve seen her get frustrated ... but I know she ’ s got to figure it out . I won ’ t say anything and then she ’ ll come back , and she ’ ll say , ' Oh , I understand .' At times , I find it frustrating as well , but what I end up doing is I say , ' Let ’ s just carry on .' So it ’ s a personality difference , but it ’ s also that the spiritual part of my way is to let it go .
Fran : I sometimes think that if I was not gay , if I had not in the 1970s and 80s struggled with my sexuality , and then subsequently had a lot of counselling and support to be comfortable in my own skin , I ’ m not sure that we could have worked together in this way . So , although I haven ’ t had the 50 – 60 years of learning the game and all the rest of it that Fatima has had to learn , there have been elements of difference in me that I ’ ve had to learn about and be comfortable with . Fatima : She was positioned or categorized as being different , and also as not being acceptable , really . And that understanding of her own identity has kept her open to learn about difference and trying to work with difference .
Shuana : Do you have an intentional strategy for your friendship when differences arise ?
Fran : Personally it ’ s a strategy I ’ ve developed through counselling : When something feels most uncomfortable , that is the very thing you should look at . Go away and think about , then come back when the heat has died down a little bit .
Fatima : It ’ s one of my conditions that truthfulness and honesty is in the relationship : honesty has to be on the table all the time or I would walk away .
Shuana : Would you say your working relationship has translated into a lifelong friendship ?
Fatima : ( laughing ) Oh dear ! I ’ m going to have a party on Monday [ when Fran leaves for the UK ]. I think yes , we ’ re very close . Fran : You ’ re one of my best friends . Fatima : I feel very safe with Fran . I feel very safe to tell her what I ’ m thinking , how I ’ m thinking . And , trust — it isn ’ t just about feeling safe , it ’ s also about trust .
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