Photo : Tracey Nearmy .

The circulatory system , by Joseph Maclise ( 1815-1891 ).

More and more , we are looking into the histological or cellular or molecular level of the structures , but from an anatomical point of view , we are looking at different and newer variations .

We don ’ t know , for example , how

environmental changes change our

body — not just the physiology of it ,

but how do we adapt ?

We need students to have knowledge

of the anatomy of the body and

to have confidence in understanding

the big picture , and then being able

to be inquiring and look at the details

as it becomes more and more relevant

, depending on which field they

go into .

AD : Last question . Professor Fogg , you ’ ve appeared in a couple of BBC documentaries about dissection . What ’ s the public reaction when you tell people you ’ re a clinical anatomist ?

Professor Fogg : Actually , it depends where you are in the world .

In the UK , where I worked for quite a

while , that would just get everyone

talking .

People would be there at the pub

and someone would put their pint

down and sit with you and not let

you leave for an hour with questions .

Whereas in Australia , if you mention

it , people might go , ‘ Oh , that ’ s a

bit gross ’ and sort of back away a lit-

Associate Professor Krisztina Valter-Kocsi .

tle bit .

But I think in general , most people

are really , genuinely enthusiastic

about it .

your hand on your patient ’ s body , so you need to know what is under

I think the haptic part of doing the dissection , that ’ s very important

creation of those resources and keep them up to date .

anatomy , but to preserve it for the teaching of history and ethics . Their

When we have things like open days , people from every background

your hand .

— that they are actually touching the

Sometimes , the most impactful

study in this context continues .

and every age group have a genuine

And that only happens if you

cadaver and exploring .

way of learning will be to come to

They provided an A4 information

interest and curiosity about it .

know your anatomy .

We do use VR and other technol-

an anatomy facility and work with

letter [ under advice known as The

I think anatomy is a great way of

I think it is a bad philosophy

ogies , and we also use plastic models

a Body Donor , and sometimes the

Vienna Protocol ] to put in the front

engaging with people .

to think that surgeons are differ-

and plasticine . So nothing is superior

most impactful way will be to sit at

cover of copies of this book , so that

You can talk about health prob-

ent from GPs — all doctors need to

to something else .

your home and do it online .

the history is known before use .

lems more pointedly , and you can

know anatomy .

I point out to my students that surgeons probably have the easier way , because they open up the patient and they look , as opposed to a GP who cannot do that .

GPs need to identify and diagnose something without actually seeing it , just by knowing what they are expecting to feel in different areas of the body .

AD : Dissecting cadavers , given the religious history , has been a controversial issue in the past .

But it is being debated again because of the shortage of bodies available for dissection .

Can learning be done through 3D digital models or is dissection still important ?

Professor Valter-Kocsi : Absolutely , dissection is still important . So if you learn about a body on TV , would that be enough ? If you are putting on a headset and you look at the body , and you see it , and turn it

But we have to remember , the dissection doesn ’ t just teach the anatomy . It is for communication , it is for empathy — students start to feel that we are talking about the patient .

They are inquiring , they are experimenting , and they are finding new things . And to see that excitement in the classroom when they find something new is just really great .

Professor Fogg : I ’ m very pro Body Donors — but as appropriate .

If the resources and the timing are right , I think dissection using a Body Donor is the most deep and powerful learning experience , because it ’ s multifaceted .

But the best digital resources also have extensive advantages , not least because they can be made available to everyone remotely .

However , to get the best versions of them , you need Body Donors to actually create those digital resources .

If we want the models to be more personalised and diverse and real-

AD : In recent years there ’ s been widespread ethical debate about the continued use of anatomical illustrations from the Pernkopf atlas , the textbook that was linked to Nazi atrocities . What do you think ?

Professor Fogg : The Pernkopf atlas is an iconic and challenging body of work that was done over about 30 years — it is probably the greatest anatomical illustrative work ever produced — but the central part of it was done during the Third Reich .

There ’ s been a lot of scholarly work done on it , especially in the last 20 years . Limited availability of records makes it difficult to determine which individual person is depicted in each image , but the number of executed political prisoners and resisters of the regime accepted by Pernkopf suggests that they are likely to have been used .

The key international group led by the custodians of this work , the

I have copies of this book that were given to me years and years ago and our library has a couple of copies , so we have inserted this information letter in all of them . The images are not used in anatomy teaching .

These works are important — they are remnants of a very distressing time in our discipline ’ s history , and they should be discussed in terms of the ethics .

Most anatomy programs now include significant discussion about body donation and how the Donors get there , why we respect them and how best we can demonstrate that respect .

Some will take a historical look as well and include discussions of works like this .

AD : You ’ ve talked about the revolution brought by improvements in medical imaging . What are the frontiers of anatomy research ?

Professor Valter-Kocsi : There is growing understanding about the

broach other subjects , like ethics and humanity , and death is a really big one that we ’ re able to talk about a bit more freely , because there is this linkage of curiosity .

Associate Professor Quentin Fogg is president of the Australian and New Zealand Association of Clinical Anatomists ( ANZACA ), and associate professor of clinical anatomy in the department of anatomy and physiology at the University of Melbourne .

Associate Professor Krisztina Valter- Kocsi , vice-president of ANZACA , is head of the anatomy discipline and chair of medical science at the school of medicine and psychology at the Australian National University , Canberra .

ANZACA warmly welcomes clinicians with an interest in anatomy to join the association .

It is hosting the world congress of the International Federation of Associations of Anatomists in Melbourne in 2026 — all interested clinicians are invited to attend .

around but can ’ t feel the organs or skin , is that enough ?

istic , then we need the anatomists and the Body Donors to guide the

University of Vienna , does not recommend use of the book for teaching

body structures and how these structures evolved and how they function .

See anzaca . org for more information .